Finding Your Voice: Copywriting Tips to Better Position Your Brand or Business [Kate Bradley]
You only get one chance to make a good impression. Often times, that impression comes from your copywriting. Well, what if you aren’t an expert copywriter? That’s what we’re here to talk about with my guest, Kate (Kately from Lately)
Nick (00:02): Hey guys, welcome to the Nine-Five Podcast. I've been excited about this interview for a while now, but before we dive in, I have a favor to ask you. If you could please head over to iTunes or anywhere that you're currently listening to this podcast and leave a rating and review, I would really appreciate it. If you could do that right now, before we even get into the episode, I would love you for it. All right. Back to your regularly scheduled program.
Nick (00:25): Capturing people's attention through writing can be one of the most difficult things to do. How you deliver your message and who your message is intended for can make the difference between a message that lands in one that flops. Today, we are speaking with Kate Bradley, CEO of Lately, and if you remember back on episode five, we were chatting with Chris Bro, who is the customer experience manager at Lately.
Nick (00:45): And he had some amazing things to say about Kate as a leader, a writer, and a CEO. Well, since that episode, I've had several side conversations with Kate and she actually agreed to come on the show to talk with us about copywriting. In this episode, we discuss tips for writing and position yourself through that writing. There are many different mediums and platforms discussed, but no matter what platform you're on the concepts really all remain the same. After listening to this episode, I hope you can walk away with a better understanding of how to write copy for your website, email marketing, or even social media, and be able to ultimately resonate better with your audience that you're trying to reach. Cue the music. This isn't the Nine-Five Podcast, and I'm your host, Nick Nalbach. Where we get into the minds of entrepreneurs and people just like you. So you can start, build and grow your own online business.
Nick (01:38): Okay. Welcome to the Nine-Five Podcast. I have a really exciting episode today. And if you remember back in episode five, I interviewed Chris Bro, who worked for Lately as a customer experience manager. And today I have the CEO of Lately, Kate Bradley, AKA Kately from Lately. So, Kate welcome to the Nine-Five Podcast.
Kate (02:02): So nice to see you and meet you in real life. Hi human.
Nick (02:07): We traded a lot of messages back and forth online, and we actually, we had a spot scheduled a couple of months ago and we had to reschedule, but we finally got to, um,
Kate (02:17): I do a lot of rescheduling. Like in fact, I can't have people in my life who, who can't reschedule because it's a fluid thing and I don't even have kids, Nick. So like, God, God help me when, whenever that happens, but yeah. So thanks.
Nick (02:32): No, not a problem. So I kind of had you in my mind when I was getting the podcast going, um, I came from a blogging background and in talking with several of the people that work under you, Chris, uh, Lauren, a couple of people, they talk about how great you are at writing. So I had to bring you on and writing has been a big part of what I do, although I'm not that great at it. I want to bring you on to talk about writing and more specifically copywriting. But before we get into any of that, I guess, why don't you give the audience a little bit of an idea who you are? Like I said, we covered it a little bit in episode five, but give the listeners a little bit of idea of who you are and what it is you actually do.
Kate (03:11): Yeah. It's, it's a moving target. So sometimes I feel like I'm the worst at it, but, um, I'm the CEO of Lately. That's true. I used to be a rock and roll DJ. So I don't know if you know this about me, Nick, but, um, my last gig was broadcasting to 20 million listeners a day for XM, satellite radio and rock and roll, like album rock, you know, everything from Ryan Adams to The Police. So like no EDM or anything like that, I'm kind of old. But what was really interesting to me about radio, what I loved most was the theater of the mind. This is why I love podcasts so much. I love that there's an activity. You, the listener have to participate in your listening. Isn't, isn't passive, right? Your, your brain actually imagines things. You know, the internet kind of ruined it a little bit because the idea of trying to think about what people look like and all that.
Kate (04:00): Right. But still it's like with reading, there's some, there's some imagery that goes along. And what's interesting also, is that the way, I don't know if you know this, but the way your, your brain neurologically categorizes music is by remembering literally every other piece of music you've ever heard when you listen to a new piece of music to kind of index it in your library of sounds. And it does that. So, so it's tied to nostalgia, right? That's why music feels so good, but your voice is also a frequency. It's a, it's a note of sorts, right? So there's a similar thing happening when just, you know, vocally. And so I love the idea of translating those thoughts through writing through copywriting and into marketing, right? So how can writing access theater the mind, right? It's my job, the person holding the microphone or the pen or the keyboard to get my message through the media, the radio, or the keyboard or the video or whatever it is into your brain.
Kate (05:00): Right? And so the onus is largely on me, still the person holding the microphone, but there is this two way street that I'm trying to create, where I, where I'm trying to make it feel like you have a voice at the other end, that trust feeling. Right. And so we actually modeled our marketing at AI at Lately off of that. And then the way I, the way the AI sort of initially gotten informed, I mean, it's more informed now and the way we treat our customers and the way we pitch ourselves, like we think a lot about old things as a cloud, as a pocket for new things. So that, that discovery, that two way street can be more comfortable, right. More familiar, nostalgic, all those things. And, um, so yeah, so I mean, that's where the copywriting piece comes in so much, right? Like it's, it's, this, it's a conversation that we're supposed to be having, and there's an emotional tie in there, right?
Kate (05:51): It doesn't matter what you're trying to communicate, whether it's to make a sale or to ask your husband to do the dishes or to your kids to eat macaroni and cheese, or to ask your boss for a raise, like communication is really the same. And people do what you want them to do when they trust you. And when they like you, and when you present them a value, a valuable reason, there's something in it for them. I mean, we all like to think that we're inherently just kind but we're inherently just human and animals. And we do things that are, you know, that benefit us. So all those components are, I mean, I'm old enough so that they all come together. I mean, I was also a fiction writing major. I forgot to tell you that too. So what's cool about fiction writing specifically is you get licensed to, to break the rules and make the rules. Right. But poetry is a good example. And I don't know if you can tell Nick, but I'm a bit of a rule breaker and I love doing that with writing, especially. And what's great about that is it doesn't matter because people will go anywhere with you. If you command authority through the media, right. Through whatever, whether it's video, podcasts, or writing, they'll again, they'll trust you and you can do whatever you want. Just do it confidently.
Nick (07:04): I struggle with the copywriting side of things. I didn't never really did good in writing to begin with when I was in school. So the fact that I went into blogging was kind of, I don't know, I'm like,
Kate (07:14): What do you struggle with? What's the hardest thing.
Nick (07:16): I think for me, it's actually conveying the message in a way that the audience is going to receive it, how I want them to receive it. I know what I want them to get in my mind as I'm writing it, but I don't know if it comes across on paper.
Kate (07:29): That's the hardest part. Yeah. I know.
Nick (07:31): I'm actually, I want to dive into that with you in a little bit here, but before we do that, something I ask all of the guests that I bring on, what is your superpower? And by that, I mean, what are you just a rockstar at? We'll go with the rock theme.
Kate (07:50): Um, I am really good at, uh, having zero edit, to a fault, right. So I say what I think, and I often put both feet in my mouth, but it's gotten me this far. Um, I, yeah, I can be very offensive, but I can also be the truth teller. Right. Who's shining the light in the room and I'm I'm mean that what goes in, in part with that is no shame. Right? So like, it might not occur to me to be embarrassed before I say something or it might very well. And I just want to say it anyways, cause I can't stand it.
Nick (08:24): You just cut right through the bullshit then. I mean that's streamlining it.
Kate (08:28): Yeah. And I mean, again, this is the copywriting thing too, right? Like when I'm writing, I often like to put all of my ideas on a page and then I edit. Right. Because I'm trying to get to that, that bleed. Right. Just that, that straight line. And like you said, like weed out the chaff. Right. And that's the hardest thing to do. I mean, it's probably, you know, I would recommend that for you too. We'll talk about it later. But like, if you just put all of your in the page and actually spend most of your time editing, I think it's like a four to one ratio. I like to say, just moving things around or taking them out altogether. You'll find that what you're trying to say, what you're really trying to say. It's there somewhere. You're just burying it with, you know, all kinds of introductions, or flowers.
Nick (09:11): Like formality.
Kate (09:12): Yeah, formality. Yeah.
Nick (09:16): Yeah. I mean, I think I've listened to some of the podcast episodes that you appeared on other podcasts. And I do like, you are very much you. Like, you don't, you don't sugar coat it, you don't try to put on this persona or be someone different to kind of fit the audience or anything like that. Like you are your own person and you're transparent. I think that's awesome. I think a lot of people can relate better to that.
Kate (09:40): And I learned the hard way, right? Like, so my, I went through a series of times where my body started reacting and I had all these injuries because I wasn't saying my truth and I wasn't listening to my own body. And then finally it just screamed at me and totally incapacitated me. And so now, like I said, it's impossible for me to not do that because I suffer like sometimes my throat will literally swell up and it's because I'm not saying something, you know. Right. So.
Nick (10:08): Interesting.
Kate (10:09): Yeah. Um, and then, you know, what else happened too, is just like, you just like all of us, we think society wants us to do certain things to be accepted. Cause we all want to be accepted as human nature. And so for example, like I would go to, um, venture capital meetings in the beginning to meet investors.
Kate (10:27): Right. And I thought like, I'm going to the bank basically. So I put a suit on and I had a briefcase. And like, those are things you do not do in startup world. But I didn't know that, you know, I was trying to do what my parents taught me. You'd be polite. You dress for the occasion. You dress to respect people, all that kind of stuff. But when I stopped doing that, cause somebody, somebody finally just said to me, be yourself, what's wrong with you? And I, I thought they were full of shit, of course. But I thought, okay, well let me just re-examine cause whatever it is I'm doing now, isn't working. And I thought, well, myself like hates these outfits. And like, I don't carry a pen. And it's what's better to Nick, is it It makes it so that you and you and me and anyone listening and, and anyone just generally, like, we can not only get through the bullshit quicker, but we can get to the, the real quicker, you know, it's like more powerful and more, um, meaningful. Right? And like, you know, I want you to walk away feeling some joy.
Nick (11:27): Well, I'm already excited cause I have you on the show here. So anyway, talking about copywriting now, it's obviously a very important part for any business to spend some time on their copywriting. How important is copywriting in business?
Kate (11:43): So copywriting and let's just, let's just expand it out to all writing. Right? All text based writing is the most important thing for any person to have any skill or the most important skill for anyone to have in any business. Right. And it doesn't matter if you're in HR, accounting, engineering, product, sales, marketing, communications, whatever it is. And the reason is, is because like what you had said specifically, like you need to get what's in your mind, out into someone else's mind, right? You want people to do what you want them to. This is our, our daily struggle as humans is to get other people to do what we need them to do so we can get, achieve our goals. Right. And so I'm going to, because I'm biased, I'm going to boil that down to marketing specifically. So marketing, not only copywriting, but marketing is the single most important aspect of any business because it's the one aspect that bleeds into every other.
Kate (12:35): Right? So whether it's the product in the language of how, when you press a button inside that tells you to here's an alert or something like that, um, or how the salesperson communicates a problem that they've heard from a customer to the engineering team or how customer service communicates the fix of that problem to the customer themselves. Like there's all these basic communication things. Um, and it doesn't apply only to SAAS. This could be to retail or finance or anything else. Right. And so that text-based communication, whether it's sending a text or a Slack or an email or a memo, people still do that these days, whatever it is like you also have to think about the time of the person on the other side. So something really basic like time, right? So if you have a meeting and it's at 11:00 AM Eastern and that's 8:00 PM, 8:00 AM Pacific, right?
Kate (13:27): So like, instead of not saying that, instead of saying the meetings at 11, like everybody's team that I know work somewhere else in the world, and this is what we learned at, uh, at XM, by the way, cause like I had a global audience. So like I always now a show, we just decided to keep it simple East coast, West coast time, but do the math for other people. That's such a nice thing to do so that the person on the other end doesn't have to, because people are bad at math generally and they get the times wrong. Right. So it's that I always think about the golden rule in your communications because we've learned that companies waste $4 billion, is it? Yeah, it's $4 billion specifically on poor writing skills, poor communications, right. And this applies internally and externally. It's not just how bad the sales team might be doing it, selling the product.
Kate (14:14): It's like literally what I'm talking about. Basic email skills, right. To each other. And then companies spend $3.1 billion in remedial writing training, because this is such a problem. Right? Just for basics. Cause our school systems are failing us in so many ways, but this is also one of them people can't write and then they can't even cursive right anymore. Which I think is a shame personally. Shows how old I am. So, so anyways, it's, it's a hugely, um, important skill. And what's also funny is like people used to laugh at English majors and think that you couldn't get a job. Right? Your, your jobs were like either a teacher or like an author. Um, but now it turns out because of the internet and social media also, um, it turns out that it is in fact like the most important skill, as we're saying.
Nick (14:59): Is it something that you can develop like as a skill? Writing, copywriting, how difficult is it for someone to just pick up and start going?
Kate (15:07): I find that the basics anybody can pick up. Right. So I mean, we all, we all can learn the rules of grammar and that kinds of things, but the, and there's some definitely some tricks as well, but the hardest thing for people is to find their personality and to communicate their personality. What's interesting to me, Nick is that most people seem to, they don't think that they have a personality or that they're very interesting. Right? Or they don't know what that is. And I think maybe it's because they're just not listening to themselves, but you know, I know for example that in real life, I, I curse awfully. I mean, I just do, I'm despicable, you know, I'm a sailor and I'm okay with that, you know, but it's, I don't generally do it publicly. Like sometimes I do, but we did today. Um, and there's, you know, there's a lot of reasons why, but so I try to do it in other ways.
Kate (16:00): And I, I make up words, I make up hyperbole. So I'll be like, Holy hot pickled jalapenos or jumping Jehosaphat. Those are my curse words. Right. And they're ridiculous, but I'm ridiculous. I am a corny human that grew out of the eighties and I can own those things and be embarrassed by myself at the same time. Right. So this is, these are ways that I communicate my personality through that copywriting and I'll do it even in places where people might think that's inappropriate. So for example, if I'm talking to the bank, um, or if I'm emailing like the VP of a company, I don't shy away from including some of my isms in that email right now, it might be a little bit less than I'm doing with you right now, but it still comes through because I, I think about the objective, right? This is the most important thing.
Kate (16:50): What is the objective? What specifically do you want me to learn or do for you, right? Is it that you just want me to accept the meeting, right? Or is it that you want me to give you $50,000 and to think in bite sized chunks, like oftentimes, especially in sales, for example, the goal is just to get to the next meeting. It's not to close the deal right now. Right. Just keep them, keep them going, you know? Um, and so what does that mean? Well oftentimes it means to say less, right. Be mysterious. I'm terrible about being mysterious. Obviously you can tell, I have to really work hard at that. Um, or is it like, get, like I said, like get your husband to wash the dishes. If that's my goal, I'm not going to send him a long text about how he forgot to take out the garbage.
Kate (17:37): And then also that our tax check is due on Friday and also needs to pick out a color of paint for the kitchen. Like that's too many things for one person to do think about, I need one thing to get done. Right. So like focus on the one thing and make it super simple. I think that, um, I have to do that myself. Like, um, like I said, this is the editing part. Like I'm constantly looking at the email and trying to pull out and then I've sent it. And I think darn it, I should've took out three more sentences. You know,
Nick (18:05): That's how I am and probably to a fault at this point, um, I've been kind of analyzing the emails I send because I've been getting big into email marketing and I've realized that, I mean, everyone says you need to have one objective, one goal, one call to action in every single email. And I've gone back through and I realize, I'm saying, click here, go here, go to this place, do this, check out this link. And it's like, I'm sending everybody all over the place and they don't end up clicking on anything so it's like, okay, there's just too much going on.
Kate (18:32): Yeah. It's hard. Self-editing is very hard.
Nick (18:36): Yep. And I only just am realizing it now. And it's still hard, even if I'm aware of it. And it's at the front of my mind when I'm typing up an email to add to a sequence or something like that, I still start getting through the email and I start including all this stuff. I'm like, wait a minute, I'm going way too crazy with this. I need to simplify it, go one at a time. But like you said, it's, it's difficult.
Kate (18:55): Yeah. And the rules are changing constantly. Right? Like, so it used to be, and there's on emails by the way. Like there's some people now who are sending emails that are like these long things. Right. So, um, Ann Handley is a good one. You should sign up for hers by the way. And she's great. Yeah. She's the Marketing Profs. Um, if you, if you she's she's um, in my network, so you'll find her, if you search LinkedIn as a friend of mine. Um, but she writes a bi-weekly newsletter, I think on Sundays. So she also sent it up, sent it out on Sundays when no one gets email. Right. She's the master of, of email marketing and you'll see what she does. Right. So she, she writes how she talks like I do too. Right. Um, and you can hear it in her voice right away.
Kate (19:38): And she also separates out almost every sentence was space. Um, it's not quite my style, but you can see why it worked for her. So you actually continue to scroll down because it's kinda like she's leaving you breadcrumbs to the next stories. And it never feels like too much. And so I've been thinking about that a lot because I should write a newsletter again, but I just don't have time to do it, but I would totally mimic Ann's ways, which go against everything you're saying. Right. So like her newsletter is about giving you entertaining content, but then there's an objective at the end, which is to sell, you know, probably have her at a conference or, um, look into Marketing Profs or her business. You know, she's doing it like as a, the objective is hidden. Right. But it's still there. Um, as opposed to like when you and I send a sales email, right. It's pretty, pretty upfront with what the story is. You know, we've noticed that by the way, a lot in sales is that our warm-up has to be much longer. So where we could usually meet you and then pitch you right away, we were learning that we can't pitch you for, it has to be six or seven exchanges of niceties.
Nick (20:40): I've been paying attention to that. I've actually subscribed. Oh. And I will put a link to Anne Handley's newsletter, her website on there, just so everyone can find that if they want to go check it out, I'll work with you and get it or find it somehow. But I'll put it in the like, um, but I've been studying, I've been following a bunch of different newsletters, kind of seeing how they do it. And it's, yeah, it's very mixed. Some of them are very long and consistently they're very long, but they are more entertaining in that sense. I think what you're saying leading off with like the stories and I don't know, those will be your longer emails, your welcome sequence, kind of getting people familiar with you and then you'd have your more punchy, shorter sales thing. I think that makes sense. But anyway, it would be for you start writing, what kind of things go through your head, go through your head? What are you thinking about before you actually sit down and write? I mean, you talked about having that one objective. Um, is there anything else you, is there like a process, I guess that you follow to begin the writing?
Kate (21:35): Yeah. I mean, so first my favorite phrase is it's always right in front of you. So sometimes starting to write something that's, you know, more complicated. You have that block of where do I start? And I literally will go grab ideas or sentences from other places that I've already used because it's, I mean, I literally have already said this before somewhere or some idea, you know, if you said to me, you know, Kate, tell me about your channel partnership marketing plan. Well, I haven't written a specific one out in the last year, but I certainly have in the past and I've definitely talked about it in a dozen emails in the last year. So I would go and grab those things, put it all together in a word doc, and then start moving these around a little bit. So that's the first thing. And to also trust yourself, to know that you probably is already in front of you.
Kate (22:21): Right? So I find myself saying things and then metaphorically, metaphorically evolving them over time, but the origin is the same. And so if you said to me, if, if you're asking me, you know, how are you going to sell a Popsicle to a panda? Like I would go back and think, did I sell a piece of bread to a lion once? I probably did, let me go find that. Did I sell a watermelon to a frog once? I probably be able to go find that. And then I would probably try to take those things and put them together in the other thing here I'm doing is also making it up. Right. So when I'm writing a lot of times I have a gut instinct about something I want to talk about and it, but I don't know if it's true yet or not. So I'll write it and then I'll go find the research to back it up because I could probably heard it somewhere.
Kate (23:11): I'm like, I feel like I've heard this, you know, remember that Facebook posts when we wrote? I'll just write it down and then I'll go find it, you know? And usually it's there. If it's not there, I don't write it. Don't worry now, like just pulling stuff out of my ass, but that's, that's, I I'm trusting my, my memory to like, you know, have it put that somewhere, you know, in there. So I think that's a really good way to get started. And then I think the objective is really important as we were talking about before really there's only two objectives in writing, which is either click share, um, or in the case of email reply or forward. Right? I don't think can think of any other actual objectives. So, and I think you have to pick one, it can't be all of them. Right? So with an email is a good example because those are two different things, forwarding and replying and click even clicking, right.
Kate (23:57): When I'm writing social media, which is what I do most. So it's easiest for me to talk about that because we're a small company, my objective is almost always share reshare. Right. And also from what we're talking about, like, I know I got to warm people up, so I'm just not expecting the click because people are wary. They need more trust more often, you know? So if I can get enough shares, they're going to get that social proof because they're going to start seeing us and knowing us and that's what's happening now in the last eight months, we we've never met some, a customer or someone that's come through our system that doesn't know about us already. You know, just, that's a lot for a little engine that could, you know, um, yeah, because, but that's been our objective, right. So, so I'm, I'm expecting it to be met.
Kate (24:37): And then like you were saying, when you write a newsletter and if you have a million things going on, it's like, one of the things I was thinking about is, you know, when you write a newsletter, typically you're supposed to have things like your logo and your photo and all these things clickable to go back to a million different places. But what if you don't do that? But if you just have only one link in the whole thing, try it. Cause I bet that's what, you know, what people, if that's what you want, you know, click on this. So yeah. And that clarity is really hard to have. It's hard for me. We struggle with it all the time. You know?
Nick (25:09): Do you think it would be the same. I would imagine It would translate over to like a sales page. Like if you're trying to get people to click through or maybe give you their email or whatever it is, it should be the same concept, right?
Kate (25:20): Yeah. There's a guy. Um, I'll have to forward it to you. Who does tear downs of apps, which is similar to webpages. And, um, it's so great because he'll break down literally every little thing from the color of the button to how big it is to whether you go to click something and you can't click it. Um, or, or the things that we expect now, which there's a lot of things that Facebook and other places have taught us to expect like a red button with a number 2, of how many messages we have or stuff like that. Right. And so I love, I love the idea of a tear down and whether it's your webpage or an email or everything else what's really hard is to, we talked about the op the object, the objective, but then to be objective, right. Is so difficult because you have so many ideas in your mind or you think like, well, duh, why wouldn't somebody?
Kate (26:07): Why aren't they getting this? You know, like I work with my designer, Jason, all the time on a deck, a pitch deck is where I live. So that's where I do a lot of my work in, and he's really great at, I guess, I don't know what it's called, but I'm going to call it visual mapping. See, here's an example where I just make something up to sound like an authority. So when we make a deck, we have a headline, we have Subtext and then there's some kind of visual or something happening underneath like the meat, the body of it. And that's just how we've worked out everything. And it's how we build our web pages also. And the first question Jason always asks is where does your eye go to first on this page? What do you want, Kate? Where do you want them to go?
Kate (26:43): What do you want them to remember after they're done with this slide? And so I might want them to remember that I got Walmart 130% ROI year over year for three years. That's the sentence that's on the slide. And I want to stand out most, but because it's a long sentence, it's actually standing out less than the headline here. Right? So all, and I'm going to remove the headline. I want Jason to bold that 130%, you know, there's a million things that I can take away or accent to make sure that's the thing. And to think about, you know, where your eye is going, you can do that. It doesn't apply only to web pages and slide decks, right? It applies to social media posts and emails like we're talking about, right? You eat with your eyes, you read with your eyes as the same thing.
Kate (27:19): Something is more delicious when it's more beautiful. And it's the same thing where you read it and I'm not doing this to you right now, but the space in audio, right. You can create the same kind of openness that makes people lean forward or turn up or turn down, you know? And so I think about that with the writing also in the visuals, like what, or am I throwing too much at you? It's back to that thing we started with earlier. I just want to get you to the next slide. That should be my objective page down.
Nick (27:50): Yep. That's funny. I actually, on the episode with Chris, we talked about that. We got into selling a little bit and he talked about the pause and how it uses that and lets other people kind of fill in for him. So he doesn't have to. And I thought that was genius.
Kate (28:06): He's really good at that.
Kate (28:08): That coffee sip thing he does. Have you ever seen him do that?
Kate (28:13): He coined this. So, so he'll, we call him the King of the Loom because he's so good at making videos for people, but he'll, he'll push the magical artificial intelligence button at Lately and then take a sip of coffee on camera. And by the time he's finished his sip, the AI has done its magic and has blown you away. And, but he's not talking during that moment and it's great. It's so compelling.
Nick (28:36): He needs to finish it off with like spitting the coffee out. Cause he's so surprised by how
Kate (28:47): I'll get him like a whole bunch of garbage bags. So he can do that.
Nick (28:50): Yeah. Just cover the room in a tarp.
Kate (28:54): Yeah, exactly.
Nick (28:56): Obviously with the audio side of it, it's easy to create that pause. And you talked about like bolding the right words and I don't care trying to draw the attention. How do you create that space? I guess when you're writing?
Kate (29:07): So you got it. One way is, um, actual space. So the lines and, Ann Handley does this very well by the way. Um, so what's the negative space of the white space, you know, around the words, but you can also do this with your handy dandy keyboard. So bold italics, like you said, um, when you're writing a resume, um, some of the, some resume tricks are to use numbers, um, because they quantify that your work. So that's important, but it's also a visual thing. You have asterix parentheses, ellipsis and dash commas, question marks. Like all those things are visual of a break to people. I'm going to try to do this better in our conversation now to just give some breathing space. So in social media, it's a little bit harder cause you don't have italics necessarily, but you do have all capital letters. Um, you definitely have ellipsis.
Kate (29:56): You have those weird words that I said like, hold onto your bagels. What does that mean? I don't know. I just made it up. It's just words on a page, but it's different words that you didn't expect before. So it actually does that same job. Right? So I'm a big fan of using all of those tools. I mean, they're there, my job is to stand out. Right. I have to, I have to stand out because everybody else is making the same goddamn noise. So what am I going to do? I'm going to use my, all the tricks up my sleeve. Some of them are, I don't know if the word tactical is it, but let's just call them tactical or handable maybe, I don't know, but the keyboard that's one, but then there's others. Like the hold onto your bagels. That's more like aesthetic,
Nick (30:36): Right? That's something I kind of, especially on social media, I will, after I write the tweet or the Facebook post, whatever it is, I'll actually look at it and just, I don't read the texts at all. I just look at how the actual text looks and sometimes it'll for me, it'll look like, okay, that's way too much. It's too blocky. There's a bunch of texts in one spot. Like maybe I should bold this or I should separate it. Start adding spaces. Like what you're talking about. Like what Ann does that for me is more visually appealing. So then I ended up going in and adding a bunch of space.
Kate (31:03): Yeah. You know what I love about what you just said is that you're, you're using your gut instinct. Right. And there's nothing more valuable than that. Your gut said to you, this is maybe not, doesn't look so good. Right? Really smart Nick.
Nick (31:17): Yeah. No, I think as much as the information is important, the how it appears, like you said, there's billions of other posts out there. Yours has to stand out and it has to be different and it has to catch people's attention. And I think I know on Twitter, the white space is kind of huge in that aspect because everyone sends like the blocks of text or if you break it up now it's a little bit different. You're seeing, okay, what is this about?
Kate (31:38): Yeah, it's, it's hard. Like we're, experimenting with that because you can do it on LinkedIn too. And that the damn more ellipsis is the thing that gets in the way, because then that's the, that's the risk you have to take. If somebody's going to click to read more know, I don't know.
Nick (31:52): That's, I've thought about that a lot, both Facebook and LinkedIn. I'm like, what I really want them to read is underneath that ellipsis catch them enough to actually click that ellipsis.
Kate (32:03): Flip that, by the way, there's your, your, your instinct just told you something. You're not listening. If what you really want them to read is underneath the ellipsis. That has to be first. Right. I find this happening to me all the time too. Like that's my number one. Edit is like, what do I really want? Here's a good example, which is why Lately does what it does. So if I'm going to say, I'm going to, if I'm going to mention this podcast and say, you say you call the podcast, "copywriting conversation with Kate" or something like that. Nobody knows about Kate, who I am. And nobody really cares about a copywriting conversation probably, but maybe this is so like pathetic at the moment. Cause I'm just thinking about it off the cuff "three tips that will convert your sales by 98% from a copywriting wizz-bang." Right? So like, you know, my guest, Kate Bradley is on today's edition of yada yada yada. So that's the stuff that is the second part there that we just saw "my guest and the link and yada is the yada. It's the stuff that is important. And they need to click that and whatever, but you got to get them to bother getting there with the top part. Right.
Nick (33:03): Would you ever think about putting a call to action at the beginning? Or would you still, would you just do something to grab their attention and then leave the call to action down the bottom?
Kate (33:10): It depends on what it is, right? So I mean, click here to look younger in 20 seconds. That goes first. You know, I think it, it depends on how much you have to cut through the noise through your thing. If you know, I think about it all the time and I watched my team do it all the time and it's the thing. I can't seem to break, get them to break the habit out of my, my writing team, my marketing team. Like I constantly see them bury. It's called burying the lead, right? Identifying what the lead is, the number one, knowing what it is, that's hard for people. And then second of all burying it, burying it, even when they know what it is, they're burying it. And I think Nick is that this is a habit that we all just got taught in school.
Kate (33:52): Everyone got taught how to write a paper or a, if you're in science, you know, you had to write those themes or whatever it was. And it's all the same. You start with some introductory paragraph or five for your leading into your thing. And you go in through your arguments and blah-blah-blah, and at the end it's like, ta-da. It's gotta be the first. Um, so it's this, this terrible habit that we all have. I do it like you can, you've heard me do it on this, on this podcast a million times already. I'm a storyteller. So I like to give the whole picture. So, you know, I don't have a blanket answer for you because it really kind of depends on what it is. But I think go with your gut. You know, like a lot of people don't understand that the time you need to spend on writing the fact that you're taking the time to look at your writing and judge it and redo it is huge.
Kate (34:39): They, they think it's an afterthought, right. Which is so amazing to me because it's the most important thing is, is communicating. And you see this all the time. Social media is another great example. How many people say totally weird stuff on social media, that sounds awful. And then someone calls them on it. And then they feel really bad because they didn't mean it like that. But it just came out that way. Right? Because people are bad at writing so bad. So it really, you should double, triple check. Every text you send, you know, unless it's to someone you totally trust. And they're never going to judge you like your wife or my husband, even then, like, I try to remember that is my friend on the other end, even though I'm telling him a rote thing that he shouldn't react to, I could probably take a minute and put a little heart on there.
Nick (35:25): Right? That's one of the tough things I have with writing and something that's kind of leading into the next topic here. I feel like selling to someone face to face is a lot easier than trying to sell on someone through text. And that's because it's for, at least for me. And I know a lot of other people conveying that emotion, conveying that message correctly is not very easy to do with words on a page. You miss you miss like the, I dunno the visual cues that the audience is giving you. But like, if I'm talking to you, I can kind of react with how you're like, whether you're smiling or nodding along or doing this, I can read off of your visual cues to kind of gauge what I'm going to say next. Whereas in writing you get one shot and you don't know how the person's going to react to it.
Kate (36:07): It's so funny that you say that. So I prefer writing because I know I have so much more control there and because I can read it 50 million times and because they can read it 50 million times afterwards, right? I'm not saying you're not right. I think you're right in in-person sales are always the best because that's where the emotion is. And we all feed off all the things you just said. Right? All that energy. But I will, I can tell you that it's, that's been a learned skill for me. It's been very hard for me to it's because it can be so visceral. So somebody can also throw me off. That's the biggest one. Right? Whereas on the page, they can't, I'm a hundred percent in control. That's my domain. I'm going to be the expert. Right? No matter. Even if you're asking me a question, I'm replying to you, I get all this time to think about my answer and make it how I want it to be.
Kate (36:50): So I personally like that better, but the, this is so random, but like someone was telling me, who's a professor right now. One of the challenges that they're having teaching both remotely and when they are in person is that everyone's so far away. They can't see all those visual cues that you just said, you know, you notice. So my team, I mean, we've been working from home since the beginning and we've gotten really good at understanding visual cue cues through a screen like you and I are doing now, um, which are different than in person, by the way, but also text cues on the internet. So someone I'll give you an example of somebody said to me, when you're writing to investors, stop being yourself on, in writing the same way. When you're writing to an investor, you are busy. You don't have time to talk to them.
Kate (37:36): You are busy, you don't have time for smiley faces or exclamation points. You can barely get it out of your mouth. Be very brief, right? Since I have started doing that, I get much more responses I've noticed. So it's an, it's a weird abnormal or anomaly to all the things we've been talking about a little bit, but it's just, it's going off. You know what this is about, Nick? It's like, it's that objective thing. But it's also what you're getting to is knowing who your audience is. So like that's the Mo okay. So go talk about it.
Nick (38:05): That was exactly what I was thinking. As you were saying it.
Kate (38:07): You were? Cause it doesn't always work in everybody every trick. Right? You have to think about who's on the other end. Yeah. Cause like, you know this stuff that I'm going to say to my team, I'm again, I'm not going to say that to my dad downstairs the same way. Cause I want it. It's a different guy and he doesn't, he won't understand what I'm saying maybe. And you know, it's just going to be, I want him to give me a foot rub and we're watching TV later. So I'm going to pull some different tricks that I'm going to pull on Lauren to get her like do the numbers this week.
Nick (38:39): That's what I think holds up. A lot of people from the very beginning, myself included is really knowing who your audience is as you're getting into it. I typically tend to write and then think about my audience, who I'm writing to after the fact. And I'm like, okay, well is this actually for them? Or is it for me? I think that's a hard habit for me to break.
Kate (38:55): That's a really good thought. Yeah. And I like you, you made another audience there. It's not only for them. And the them is, can be different. But then the, for you is a good one to identify and acknowledge at the same time because that ego is totally a part of it. It's a part of it right now. We're looking at ourselves in the mirror, basically this whole call. I've done my hair 50 times before I sat down with you. You know that while I sat down with you, even me not even realizing this, I, my, my shoulder was hurting. So I put it here. But like, this is a power stance. Right. You know that this is not my podcast.
Kate (39:28): It's so funny. Humans are animals. But the, the audience, I think, you know, sometimes people kind of guess at that and you do, you should be guessing at some point in the beginning, you have to, but it's really easy to ask people what they want or what they don't want and what they like. And don't like, and they'll tell you, and they're really nice and helpful. You tell us you've helped us a lot. Right? Okay. So we've got a good list of things here where we've got objective, right? We've got audience, we've got the space that you were talking about. We've got the tips, the tools of the keyboard, bolds, et cetera. We talked about, um, putting your personality in there, your persona, my weird example of faith, where word bagels. I love that word. It's a great word. It's just funny to say. And they're funny to handle there cause they're slippery a little bit on the outside.
Kate (40:15): They're just funny. They taste delicious. Of course. And you boil a bagel, which is also funny because you know that yeah. They boil them in hot, in hot oil. Um, which is technically frying. But like you, or this is what we went in. That when I was in elementary school, we went to a bagel, a bagel place to see how they're made. And they were boiling and these hot vats of oil, um, which is not quite frying, right. Boiling. And then they were wood firing them afterwards or baking them depending on where you go, two part process that crust outside. And that's why it's got the ooey gooey. And I don't really know what I'm talking about. Someone else is gonna hear this. Who's like a bagel expert and be like, she's full of.
Nick (40:55): Actually. Fun fact of the day.
Kate (41:00): I'm such a loser.
Nick (41:05): No, I'm going to start sharing that with everybody now. Guarantee none of my friends know that.
Kate (41:09): And it's fun to say, say, boil the bagels only boil bagels. Hold on to your boiled bagels. Now I'm going to try that one that makes Lauren laugh so hard, especially Lauren's my right-hand woman by the way, people at lately.
Nick (41:22): Yeah. I've, I've tuned into quite a few of you. Guys's uh, your live sessions on YouTube.
Kate (41:27): Oh yeah. So Lauren does though. Yeah. They're super fun.
Nick (41:30): Go check out their channel. I'll link to that in the show notes as well, but how you guys go live pretty often. I know Lauren goes live at least once a week. I think several times a week,
Kate (41:38): Every Tuesday, tomorrow at 2:00 PM Eastern and 11:00 AM Pacific.
Nick (41:43): What would be some final tips that you would give someone who's looking to try to improve their copywriting skills? Maybe they're just getting started with copywriting altogether, but what would be some quick tips that you would probably give them to help improve.
Kate (41:56): Steal from other people is the best one. So, you know, it's okay to not plagiarize is not what we're talking about here, but like, you can totally steal phrases. I do it all the time. Lauren, who I keep mentioning, she has some great texts that she uses. Like, so I, I stole Yassss from her, which is capital capital, capital Y a S S S S S. Right. I love that. Or I stole from Jason, my, my chief product officer. He wrote, he likes to say blahrg B L A H R G. Blahrg
Kate (42:32): Says it all right. When he's blahrg
Kate (42:35): Or, you know, you can take ideas if someone has an idea, like we were talking, we're talking about today. Like maybe we gave people in ideas about writing about objectives and audience or verses or something like that. So there's nothing wrong with, I mean, we all know the phrase, like great artists steal or something like that.
Nick (42:52): Yeah. I was just watching a video on the person, mentioned that several times. So it's weird that you brought that up. That's funny.
Kate (42:57): Totally true. I mean, you know, and that's the thing we talked about a little bit before, too, is like taking ideas that I've already had. Right. And then moving around. So into something new like music, right? Same there's no, you can't make, make a totally new song. They've all been done already. Like there's no new assemblages of notes. Right. All you can do is just keep reassembling them. So I think that's, that's a really important one. And then the easy one is, is I've said this before, but it's so easy. Re read it out loud. So after you write something, you think it's done, read it out loud. If you trip on it, they are tripping on it in their minds because people read out loud in their minds. They do, whether they know it or not, they hear what you, what you wrote. So if it feels uncomfortable to say it feels uncomfortable to read, and that leads to lack of trust, which is the number one reason for loss of sales.
Nick (43:44): That's actually a good one. I like that one. Cause that's kinda like what we were talking about, how, I don't know if it's coming off, how I intended it to, when I write, I think reading out loud would be a good way to say, okay, when I read this out loud, when I'm saying it, does that make sense? Is it exactly the message that I'm trying to get across? That's I like that tip. Okay. And I guess to wrap everything up, do you want to talk about Lately? Just a little bit. I mean, I'm obsessed with the tool and being the CEO of Lately. I feel like you should just talk a little bit about what Lately is.
Kate (44:16): Sure. Thanks so much, Nick. Um, yeah. So Lately uses artificial intelligence to automatically transform long form content like this podcast into hundreds of mini movie clips of the best parts of this podcast that are already pre-vetted by an AI brain to know what Nick's audience is going to respond to.
Nick (44:38): It's insane. I've been posting about it all over on social media all the time. But yeah, I mean, just for a quick example, I, my blog posts are typically 2000 words, ish. Each one of those I run through. I get about 50 social media posts out of it.
Kate (44:54): Awesome.
Nick (44:54): Easy. And then the podcast, because it's a lot longer content. I don't think there's been one podcast episode that I've run through there that I haven't gotten at least 200 to 250 social media posts that it spits out.
Kate (45:06): That's awesome. And use them all over time, right?
Nick (45:10): I have noticed some of them that you guys post, do you, you go back through some of your, like top hard hitting ones and kind of recycle them into the content calendar?
Kate (45:20): Yeah. What you're seeing is actually, so, um, there's the teams version and then there's my version. So like I will, I do mine by hand because I want, so the AI learns from what you publish and from what it publishes and from what you're curating inside too. Right. So I want it to learn even more human stuff. So I will hand write some like, so for, for this podcast, when you, you're going to send me the file, I'm going to run it through the AI to write and then give it to my team and they're going to do exactly what you would do. And it's going to use our information to pull out those, those pieces and we'll run them forever. Like, so if we get a hundred, I tell her to usually short shoot for like 40 or so, but she'll run all 40 once a week for the next 40 weeks, because this is going to be legacy content that people care about.
Kate (46:06): But then I will hand write probably over the next year a dozen. Um, and because I want to see what the AI is learning and it works. Right. So we see this, um, in the hashtags, Nick, by the way. So hopefully you spend a lot of time on those word clouds in the analytics, because that's where literally we're telling you what the AI is, learning about what you should be writing. Right. That's what's there. And so we've noticed that like, whenever I do that, those get, you know, higher re-shares and then the AI starts to look for that content from my team as well. Yeah.
Nick (46:39): Yeah. There's a lot more, I didn't know. It was like continually learning like that.
Kate (46:43): Yeah.
Nick (46:43): That's really cool.
Kate (46:44): Every day. So it runs through your content from the last year, every single day. Yeah. It's a beast.
Nick (46:51): It's even more impressive. It is a beast.
Kate (46:54): Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's, it's, it's hard to convey these things, right. This is the, you know, here we are talking about communication and I'm terrible at it for our own thing. It's really hard.
Nick (47:07): I've thought about that from your guys' same point. Like, cause I have spread the word and I know I'll get comments from other people that they're like, what the hell is this? Like, what are you using? How did you do that? And yeah. I mean, without trying it, that was seeing it firsthand. I feel like it is tough to comprehend. I think Chris had reached out to me twice and I think the first time, I dunno, we ended up not doing the demo. And then later on he reached out to me and I was like, okay, well let's, let's just see what it's about. You know, I was thinking about switching to a different platform already. And I was like, okay, let's see it. And he showed it to me and I was like, Whoa, that is insane.
Nick (47:40): But it was, I didn't fully grasp it until he actually showed it to me firsthand. I was like, wow. Okay. I'm in.
Kate (47:45): Yeah. That's why that demo. Remember, I was telling you, we know how important that is. Um, the Gary Vee channel helped a lot. Did you see that on Twitter,
Nick (47:54): Yeah, and Chris actually, he mentioned it in the podcast who is like GaryVeeTV is out there that, yeah.
Kate (47:59): Yeah. So he launched a whole channel and it's getting him a 12000% increase in engagement, only fueled by our AI. There's nothing else on the channel. It's only Lately stuff. So he uses it as like a farm to test the content and then reuse it in other channels. But yeah, I mean it's cause it's, I mean for Gary because he's got so much content that's because it's learning so much. Right, right. He's just curating that brain more and more feeding it.
Nick (48:24): I guess one last thing before we finally wrap up here for you, is it when other people put into the AI, is it learning for everybody or does like my content learn for me in what I'm doing? And like, you understand what I'm saying? I don't know if I'm saying that right.
Kate (48:40): Yeah. It can only learn for you because we only have access to your analytics from whatever you've given us. I mean, if you happen to log in and give us your wife's analytics, we'll learn from that too. Um, but, and then you can separate them. So that's what, that's how we work with like larger customers as well as they can feed in. They can run all kinds of different brand channels through Lately. Um, just too complicated to talk about. It's easier to show. Um, but yeah, yeah. I mean, but to your point, like behind the scenes, we're able to compare data from customers. And then I'm trying to think about how to use that. So I'll tell you one way, which is right now, um, we worked with Anheuser-Busch and Bev and we took 10,000 pieces of their content, ran it through the brain from one of their brand voices.
Kate (49:22): Like they have like 50 brands or something and then we're able to push a button and, and from scratch Lately, read a blog and then wrote from scratch social posts in the brand voice. Okay. So it still, it had a whole bunch of information to make the writing model from that was curated from one voice. And then it had to still learn from a blog it's still needs like a jumping off point. And so because of their request of people to figure out how to best humanize themselves and like do what you, what we've been talking about this whole time, like the copywriting, the added component. That's the number one question we get is how do I do what you're doing Kate? So we're now running Lately's content through its own brain to do that same idea. Um, cause we're trying to study this phenomenon, which is, could you push a button, Nick that says, make me sound like Kate or make me sound like Gary V or make me sound like Kanye West. And the answer is yes, we're building it.
Nick (50:14): That's crazy. I mean, really you could look at all the information coming in and seeing like a collective of what's worked the best across every single platform. That's insane. You're blowing my mind right now.
Nick (50:27): Alright Kate, where can people find you online? Social media, the interwebs, where do you want people to go to find you?
Kate (50:33): You can get me at @latelyAI, @kately, I'm in all those places. Um, and then we're at @LatelyAI, we just rebranded ourselves, which is a total disaster.
Nick (50:46): I like the website. It looks good.
Kate (50:46): Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. We're, we're still fine with it. I gotta put my voice on it. Can you tell, like I haven't done that yet. It's not me. It's on my list of things to do so. Um, but you can also just, just email me I'm firstname.lastname@example.org. And um, we're very friendly. I'll probably give you the Lauren or Chris or Ankit whoever you are.
Nick (51:03): They're all great people as well. I think I've spoken to every single one of them, whether it's on video or just through social media, like, I mean the Lately family's awesome. So you're in good hands, no matter who you're talking to.
Kate (51:16): Thank you so much. I'm so glad that I got to talk to you finally today.
Nick (51:20): Yes. Thank you for coming on. I I've been looking forward to this interview for a while, so thank you very much.
Nick (51:26): Okay. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Kate. She has a lot of experience writing and building her startup. And as I'm sure you can tell from that interview, she comes from a very genuine place. That is really what makes Lately as a company, so amazing. In this episode, hearing Kate talk about her writing process and how she does everything, it really puts the whole thing into perspective for me. So I'm hoping you got the same out of it that I did. Let us know what you thought about this episode by leaving a comment in the show notes, the show notes page is where you can find all the links, the transcript, and the summary of this episode.
Nick (51:59): And you can get to the show notes by heading over to ninefivepodcast.com/episode16. Now nine five is going to be all spelled out. That's N I N E F I V E podcast.com and then episode 16, 16, there is actually going to be the number 16. That's kind of confusing. I don't know why I did one one way and did one the other way, but it is what it is. But thank you guys again for tuning in. I hope you have a great rest of your week. Keep crushing your goals and keep getting better and we'll catch you guys again in next week's episode.
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You only get one chance at a first impression.
That is why copywriting is a crucial aspect to any business. The text on your website, in your emails, or on social media may be the only chance you have to pique the interest of your audinece to gain a new customer, subscriber, or follower.
In an article I read from QuickSprout they said, design, content marketing, and SEO are all parts of a digital marketing plan, but copywiritng is the glue that ties it all together.
The problem is, unless you are an expert writer or copywriter, it can be difficult for us as entrepreneurs to write good copy with a clear message that sticks.
We’re all so focused on the various aspects of our businesses that the writing can often be overlooked or viewed as an afterthought.
The truth is, copywriting is arguably one of the most important parts of your business.
In this episode we talk with Kate Braldey, CEO of Lately, who discusses the importance of copywriting. Kate even shares simple ways that we can improve our copywriting skills so we can relate better to our audience and attract more prospective clients.
As Kate mentions in the episode, writing great copy can come down to these 4 major points:
- Having a clear objective
- Knowing your audience
- Using visual cues
Let’s break these down a little bit.
1. Have a Clear Objective with Your Writing
You need to have a specific goal or objective with your writing. Many times this ties directly into your CTA, or Call to Action. Before you sit down to write your next social media post, blog, or sales page, think about what you want the reader to do.
As Kate says in this episode,
“People will go anywhere with you if you command authority.”
You have to let your audience know what you want them to do next. That could be commenting on your blog, sharing your post on social media, or maybe even purchase your product.
Knowing what you want your audience to do is the first thing you should think about when you’re getting ready to write.
2. Know Who You’re Writing To
Speaking of your audience, knowing who you’re talking to is another thing you need to consider BEFORE you begin writing.
How you speak to your audience is going to depend on the audience itself. This is another great point that Kate touches on in this episode.
You wouldn’t speak to your spouse the same way you would talk to a prospective client.
Your voice needs to be consistent with what resonates best with the audience you are speaking to.
Pro Tip from Kate: Read the content out loud to yourself. Whether they know this or not, your audience is reading your content out loud (in their head). If your text sounds off when you read it out loud to yourself, your text will sound off to your audience.
3. Share Your Personality Through Your Writing
Has anyone ever reached out to you on social media (Twitter or Facebook) with a brand account? If you weren’t already familiar with the brand, you probably didn’t pay much attention to it. You were probably thinking, “great, what are they trying to sell me on now?”
On the flip side, if someone tries to connect with you from their personal account, you are much more likely to engage with them.
That’s because your audience wants to connect with real people.
This is something you need to keep in mind when you are doing any kind of writing, not just for social media. Regardless if you are writing from the perspective of a business or a personal brand, your voice needs to be consistent with who you are and what you are, a human.
4. Using Visual Cues to Guide Your Reader
Now, I’m not just talking about images here, although those can help break up the long chunks of text and give your reader a break.
I’m talking about how the text actually looks on the page.
What do you mean by that?
Well, I already used two examples of this in the line above:
- Using white space
In the text above, I left extra space above and below the line “What do you mean by that?”
This is to not only give the readers eyes a break, but it also stands out against the rest of the text on the page. I also italicized the text as well to give it a little more emphasis and attention to it.
Similarly, you can do this by bolding text, using larger font, highlight important words in a different color, and so on. Kate calls this, “using the tools of the keyboard.”
One major tip Kate mentions on this topic is figuring out where the eyes go to first.
Kate works with her designer, Jason, to create pitch decks. Jason comes back to Kate with a design and always asks, “Where do your eyes go to first?” and “Where do you want them to go?”
“You eat with your eyes and you read with your eyes. Something is always mre delicious when it’s more beatutiful”
If you are the one creating the content, it may be difficult to do this by yourself. Instead, give your work to a friend or colleague and ask them that same question:
Where do your eyes go to first?
This is where you need to keep your objective in mind!
If your audience isn’t looking where you want them to look first, they most likely won’t do what you want them to do next.
Make sure you listen to the full episode to hear Kate’s story and all the great information she shared with us on this episode.
Links & Resources
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